1 00:00:14,140 --> 00:00:11,830 on this episode of skeptic ow part of 2 00:00:16,450 --> 00:00:14,150 the Buddhist dogma that initially kinda 3 00:00:19,210 --> 00:00:16,460 I think turned you off was the idea of 4 00:00:22,150 --> 00:00:19,220 reincarnation again that's another area 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:22,160 that back in those days wasn't anything 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:23,930 we're close to being studied 7 00:00:29,769 --> 00:00:27,050 scientifically but since then it has 8 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:29,779 been studied scientifically and they 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:33,110 offer rather compelling evidence highly 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:35,570 suggestive that something like 11 00:00:41,830 --> 00:00:39,290 reincarnation is really happening so are 12 00:00:46,029 --> 00:00:41,840 you trying to fit that back into a 13 00:00:48,430 --> 00:00:46,039 secular orientation that may not hold up 14 00:00:50,860 --> 00:00:48,440 when we really look at the science well 15 00:00:56,139 --> 00:00:50,870 again I'm not a scientist and so I can 16 00:00:58,900 --> 00:00:56,149 only as it were you know I if evidence 17 00:01:01,830 --> 00:00:58,910 appears through scientific study and so 18 00:01:04,630 --> 00:01:01,840 forth of the possibility of a non 19 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:04,640 material consciousness that floats free 20 00:01:10,660 --> 00:01:07,910 of the material world if evidence can be 21 00:01:13,330 --> 00:01:10,670 compiled that illustrate that indicates 22 00:01:14,620 --> 00:01:13,340 that reincarnation is a possibility then 23 00:01:17,410 --> 00:01:14,630 that's fine I don't have a problem with 24 00:01:20,499 --> 00:01:17,420 that and I just don't think that those 25 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:20,509 issues are actually central to what the 26 00:01:25,179 --> 00:01:22,670 Buddha was trying to do follow through 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:25,189 with that thought why do you think 28 00:01:29,590 --> 00:01:26,810 because I think this is an area where 29 00:01:31,719 --> 00:01:29,600 you're probably at odds with a number of 30 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:31,729 people when you don't think that this 31 00:01:38,050 --> 00:01:36,470 was central to what the Buddha was even 32 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:38,060 if he wasn't teaching it as you said 33 00:01:43,630 --> 00:01:40,850 what was his realization or was the 34 00:01:44,770 --> 00:01:43,640 realization of thousands and thousands 35 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:44,780 of people who follow it I mean that's 36 00:01:49,810 --> 00:01:46,970 what I read out of it is that they went 37 00:01:51,429 --> 00:01:49,820 they looked inside in the same way that 38 00:01:54,730 --> 00:01:51,439 you have and they came to the conclusion 39 00:01:58,510 --> 00:01:54,740 ah consciousness is fundamental ah 40 00:02:00,940 --> 00:01:58,520 reincarnation is real and can't we maybe 41 00:02:03,819 --> 00:02:00,950 assume that the Buddha did come to that 42 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:03,829 same conclusion well again it depends in 43 00:02:07,740 --> 00:02:05,930 which which text you look at the 44 00:02:10,539 --> 00:02:07,750 accounts of the Buddha's Awakening and 45 00:02:12,550 --> 00:02:10,549 do not actual there's one account that 46 00:02:16,689 --> 00:02:12,560 talks of him remembering all of his past 47 00:02:18,610 --> 00:02:16,699 lifetimes and so on but the the accounts 48 00:02:20,020 --> 00:02:18,620 that I find the most compelling 49 00:02:22,420 --> 00:02:20,030 I have nothing to do with reincarnation 50 00:02:37,030 --> 00:02:22,430 or the nature of consciousness 51 00:02:38,199 --> 00:02:37,040 stay with us for skeptic Oh welcome to 52 00:02:39,550 --> 00:02:38,209 skeptic Oh where we explore 53 00:02:42,399 --> 00:02:39,560 controversial science but leading 54 00:02:45,460 --> 00:02:42,409 researchers thinkers and their critics 55 00:02:47,589 --> 00:02:45,470 I'm your host Alex Karras and I remember 56 00:02:49,780 --> 00:02:47,599 the first time I tried meditation I 57 00:02:51,910 --> 00:02:49,790 remember because the anxiety caused me 58 00:02:53,289 --> 00:02:51,920 came his stomachache and when sitting 59 00:02:55,690 --> 00:02:53,299 meditation didn't work for me 60 00:02:59,020 --> 00:02:55,700 I tried walking meditation as taught by 61 00:03:00,759 --> 00:02:59,030 Zen master tick not Han and that didn't 62 00:03:02,410 --> 00:03:00,769 work very well either too confining too 63 00:03:04,569 --> 00:03:02,420 restrictive too many rules it felt like 64 00:03:06,399 --> 00:03:04,579 church but like millions of other 65 00:03:09,190 --> 00:03:06,409 Westerners I couldn't escape feeling 66 00:03:12,190 --> 00:03:09,200 that there was something to this 67 00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:12,200 Buddhist practice of quietly looking 68 00:03:18,009 --> 00:03:15,470 within now today's guest on skeptical 69 00:03:20,530 --> 00:03:18,019 Buddhist teacher and author Stephen 70 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:20,540 Bachelor has probably done more than 71 00:03:26,409 --> 00:03:22,970 anyone else in the last 20 years to 72 00:03:29,379 --> 00:03:26,419 change how Westerners approach Buddhist 73 00:03:31,659 --> 00:03:29,389 meditation his books Buddhism without 74 00:03:34,330 --> 00:03:31,669 beliefs confessions of a Buddhist 75 00:03:37,180 --> 00:03:34,340 atheist and his latest after Buddhism 76 00:03:39,009 --> 00:03:37,190 stripped Buddhism of its robes and 77 00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:39,019 prayer wheels and offered us the 78 00:03:44,909 --> 00:03:41,900 opportunity to consider meditation from 79 00:03:47,470 --> 00:03:44,919 a Western scientific reductionistic 80 00:03:49,539 --> 00:03:47,480 perspective and while as you can imagine 81 00:03:52,479 --> 00:03:49,549 this approach has met with a lot of 82 00:03:55,210 --> 00:03:52,489 resistance from Buddhists it's also been 83 00:03:57,900 --> 00:03:55,220 a tremendous boon to millions who wish 84 00:04:00,270 --> 00:03:57,910 to explore the well-documented 85 00:04:02,909 --> 00:04:00,280 scientific benefits of meditation 86 00:04:06,099 --> 00:04:02,919 without giving up their modern-day 87 00:04:07,809 --> 00:04:06,109 secular worldview ik Bachelor even made 88 00:04:09,550 --> 00:04:07,819 it ok for atheists like Christopher 89 00:04:12,250 --> 00:04:09,560 Hitchens and Sam Harris to give 90 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:12,260 meditation a try now I love a good 91 00:04:16,180 --> 00:04:14,090 account of classed as well as the next 92 00:04:18,879 --> 00:04:16,190 guy probably because I often find myself 93 00:04:20,770 --> 00:04:18,889 in that camp and Stephen bachelor 94 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:20,780 deserves a ton of credit for blazing a 95 00:04:24,610 --> 00:04:22,490 new path towards understanding not only 96 00:04:27,070 --> 00:04:24,620 Buddhism but consciousness science in 97 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:27,080 general but that's not why I wanted to 98 00:04:31,999 --> 00:04:29,270 talk to him on skeptic oh because you 99 00:04:34,549 --> 00:04:32,009 see in his reductionistic stripping away 100 00:04:37,420 --> 00:04:34,559 Buddhist Dogma bachelor has found 101 00:04:40,549 --> 00:04:37,430 himself in the no man's land of 102 00:04:43,730 --> 00:04:40,559 scientific materialism let me play this 103 00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:43,740 brief clip from his 2010 interview with 104 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:46,710 ABC News reporter in former guest on 105 00:04:53,679 --> 00:04:50,610 skeptic Oh Dan Harris my Buddhism is an 106 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:53,689 entirely natural one I'm I'm a 107 00:04:58,909 --> 00:04:56,490 naturalist I'm probably a materialist at 108 00:05:01,219 --> 00:04:58,919 some level I don't that I feel that this 109 00:05:03,649 --> 00:05:01,229 world this experience that is ideated 110 00:05:09,019 --> 00:05:03,659 through this body in this brain but that 111 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:09,029 we with that so how can this be how can 112 00:05:15,019 --> 00:05:13,020 a material purely physical brain do 113 00:05:17,149 --> 00:05:15,029 everything that meditation has shown it 114 00:05:19,339 --> 00:05:17,159 can do in well-documented laboratory 115 00:05:21,459 --> 00:05:19,349 experiments don't the physical 116 00:05:24,139 --> 00:05:21,469 measurable effects of meditation 117 00:05:26,869 --> 00:05:24,149 contradict bachelors materialistic 118 00:05:29,629 --> 00:05:26,879 understanding of consciousness or over 119 00:05:31,869 --> 00:05:29,639 how can anyone who's had any excess at 120 00:05:35,149 --> 00:05:31,879 all with meditation really believe that 121 00:05:37,939 --> 00:05:35,159 consciousness is an illusion and at the 122 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:37,949 phenomena of biological robots which is 123 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:40,289 the only position that scientific 124 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:43,289 materialism leads to and what about 125 00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:46,409 reincarnation doesn't the best and only 126 00:05:50,959 --> 00:05:48,449 science we have regarding the question 127 00:05:53,629 --> 00:05:50,969 of reincarnation that is the work at 128 00:05:55,489 --> 00:05:53,639 University of Virginia Ian Stevenson dr. 129 00:05:58,339 --> 00:05:55,499 Jim Tucker doesn't that seem to support 130 00:06:00,529 --> 00:05:58,349 the reality of consciousness surviving 131 00:06:03,170 --> 00:06:00,539 death these are some of the questions 132 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:03,180 for today's guest Stephen bachelor and 133 00:06:07,850 --> 00:06:05,849 why I was so delighted that he agreed to 134 00:06:09,649 --> 00:06:07,860 join me to have what turned out to be a 135 00:06:12,829 --> 00:06:09,659 great conversation about his new book 136 00:06:16,629 --> 00:06:12,839 after Buddhism so here goes I hope you 137 00:06:19,219 --> 00:06:16,639 enjoy my dialogue with Stephen bachelor 138 00:06:21,709 --> 00:06:19,229 today we welcome well-known Buddhist 139 00:06:24,170 --> 00:06:21,719 teacher and author Stephen bachelor - 140 00:06:26,329 --> 00:06:24,180 skeptic Oh Stephen is best known for his 141 00:06:28,939 --> 00:06:26,339 secular and sometimes controversial 142 00:06:31,519 --> 00:06:28,949 approach to Buddhism in 2010 he 143 00:06:33,769 --> 00:06:31,529 published confession of a Buddhist 144 00:06:37,459 --> 00:06:33,779 atheist a book that caused quite a stir 145 00:06:40,309 --> 00:06:37,469 but also a book that inspired many many 146 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:40,319 many people to take a fresh contemporary 147 00:06:45,860 --> 00:06:43,769 look at Buddhism and meditation Stevens 148 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:45,870 new book after Buddhism 149 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:48,090 rethinking the dharma for a secular age 150 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:50,370 has been out only a month but it's 151 00:06:55,190 --> 00:06:52,530 already climbed to the top of many 152 00:06:57,620 --> 00:06:55,200 Amazon rankings and received extremely 153 00:07:00,050 --> 00:06:57,630 high praise from a number of folks 154 00:07:01,670 --> 00:07:00,060 inside and outside of the Buddhist 155 00:07:04,070 --> 00:07:01,680 community were delighted to have him 156 00:07:05,060 --> 00:07:04,080 here today Steven welcome and thanks so 157 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:05,070 much for joining me 158 00:07:10,220 --> 00:07:07,170 well I'm really glad to be here at --ax 159 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:10,230 it's it's it's real privilege well thank 160 00:07:14,450 --> 00:07:12,900 you the privileges really ours so Steven 161 00:07:16,910 --> 00:07:14,460 since skeptic Oh is a show that 162 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:16,920 primarily focuses on consciousness 163 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:19,530 science I suspect that there will be 164 00:07:26,180 --> 00:07:22,530 many listeners who are not familiar with 165 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:26,190 the whole story and the rather amazing 166 00:07:30,710 --> 00:07:28,290 journey that you've taken in your life 167 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:30,720 through Buddhism so I know it's a story 168 00:07:34,490 --> 00:07:32,730 you've told many times before but if you 169 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:34,500 can give people a thumbnail sketch of 170 00:07:42,230 --> 00:07:37,370 you know your immersion into Buddhism 171 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:42,240 okay and I went to high school in New 172 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:46,530 London in England and on completing that 173 00:07:52,370 --> 00:07:50,130 at the age of 18 I went off to India on 174 00:07:56,930 --> 00:07:52,380 what was called the hippie trail in 175 00:07:59,150 --> 00:07:56,940 search of probably some meaning or some 176 00:08:01,940 --> 00:07:59,160 oriental wisdom or whatever it was I I 177 00:08:06,530 --> 00:08:01,950 don't really know in any case I went 178 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:06,540 overland I've arrived in India beginning 179 00:08:11,390 --> 00:08:08,210 of 1972 180 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:11,400 fana myself in the community around the 181 00:08:16,310 --> 00:08:14,250 Dalai Lama the Tibetan refugees who had 182 00:08:18,860 --> 00:08:16,320 just come out of Tibet but 10 or 12 183 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:18,870 years before just to highlight that this 184 00:08:27,410 --> 00:08:23,810 is 1972 I mean the Dalai Lama wasn't the 185 00:08:29,810 --> 00:08:27,420 International super mega star that he is 186 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:29,820 and I mean what was that like I mean 187 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:32,850 talk about culture shock I know you kind 188 00:08:36,140 --> 00:08:34,050 of say you know I'm on the hippie trail 189 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:36,150 and stuff but I mean that had to just be 190 00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:39,210 mind-blowing just to be there I think it 191 00:08:42,890 --> 00:08:40,710 was but of course we look at it from the 192 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:42,900 perspective of what we now know about 193 00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:44,610 all these things at the time as you say 194 00:08:48,290 --> 00:08:46,350 the Dalai Lama had not even been out of 195 00:08:49,970 --> 00:08:48,300 India a bit out of Tibet obviously he'd 196 00:08:52,910 --> 00:08:49,980 never been to the West he was actually 197 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:52,920 be barred from America by Nixon and 198 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:54,210 Kissinger who were playing the China 199 00:08:57,460 --> 00:08:56,370 China card then he wasn't even he was 200 00:09:00,960 --> 00:08:57,470 unknown 201 00:09:04,449 --> 00:09:00,970 and so there was a small community of 202 00:09:06,970 --> 00:09:04,459 Western people Americans Europeans 203 00:09:09,970 --> 00:09:06,980 Australians who had ended up in 204 00:09:12,939 --> 00:09:09,980 Dharamsala where he lived and he had 205 00:09:16,119 --> 00:09:12,949 just started at that time to offer 206 00:09:19,660 --> 00:09:16,129 courses in an institute he created and 207 00:09:21,759 --> 00:09:19,670 in Dharamsala and I enrolled in that 208 00:09:24,579 --> 00:09:21,769 with their few days of arriving there 209 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:24,589 and I've never effectively done anything 210 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:27,170 else since except study and practice 211 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:31,610 Buddhism and I started the my interest 212 00:09:35,829 --> 00:09:33,170 obviously with the Tibetan Buddhist 213 00:09:37,780 --> 00:09:35,839 approach around the Dalai Lama that 214 00:09:39,699 --> 00:09:37,790 lasted for about six or seven years both 215 00:09:42,189 --> 00:09:39,709 in India and then subsequently in 216 00:09:45,249 --> 00:09:42,199 Switzerland and Germany where I was a 217 00:09:48,579 --> 00:09:45,259 translator for Tibetan Lamas I followed 218 00:09:51,790 --> 00:09:48,589 that with um a stay in a Korean Zen 219 00:09:54,309 --> 00:09:51,800 monastery for four years in in the 220 00:09:57,670 --> 00:09:54,319 southwest corner of the Republic of 221 00:10:00,040 --> 00:09:57,680 Korea North Korea obviously again I love 222 00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:00,050 the way that you say that but for most 223 00:10:05,079 --> 00:10:01,910 folks think of that I mean so you 224 00:10:08,110 --> 00:10:05,089 totally immersed yourself again into a 225 00:10:09,999 --> 00:10:08,120 monastic life this time in the Zen 226 00:10:13,269 --> 00:10:10,009 tradition in another foreign country so 227 00:10:17,079 --> 00:10:13,279 I mean there's something about your 228 00:10:18,910 --> 00:10:17,089 drive in your spirit for your openness 229 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:18,920 forward for just kind of immersing 230 00:10:23,499 --> 00:10:21,050 yourself going native I think was that 231 00:10:26,439 --> 00:10:23,509 the term that I pulled out of the book I 232 00:10:30,370 --> 00:10:26,449 mean what is it about you that that just 233 00:10:32,110 --> 00:10:30,380 allows you to leap into these things in 234 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:32,120 that way to have you thought about that 235 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:36,290 much um well to be honest uh I had 236 00:10:41,199 --> 00:10:39,529 thought about it obviously the remember 237 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:41,209 that the period in which this happened 238 00:10:45,790 --> 00:10:43,910 was at the very end of the 1960s and so 239 00:10:48,730 --> 00:10:45,800 I came out of this countercultural 240 00:10:51,819 --> 00:10:48,740 movement at a period when there was 241 00:10:55,809 --> 00:10:51,829 suddenly a kind of possibilities there 242 00:10:58,329 --> 00:10:55,819 was a degree of prosperity in the West 243 00:11:00,790 --> 00:10:58,339 after the lean years following the 244 00:11:03,460 --> 00:11:00,800 Second World War and we had this serve 245 00:11:07,150 --> 00:11:03,470 period this opening that so I grew up 246 00:11:09,730 --> 00:11:07,160 very much as a child of the 1960s and we 247 00:11:11,290 --> 00:11:09,740 really had the sense that you know life 248 00:11:13,810 --> 00:11:11,300 had opportunities and possibility 249 00:11:16,449 --> 00:11:13,820 is that we could follow and perhaps 250 00:11:20,829 --> 00:11:16,459 really make a difference many of us were 251 00:11:23,070 --> 00:11:20,839 fairly alienated about our own cultures 252 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:23,080 our own religious traditions our own 253 00:11:30,940 --> 00:11:27,110 education system and we were drawn you 254 00:11:32,949 --> 00:11:30,950 know very compelling lately to engage 255 00:11:36,250 --> 00:11:32,959 with forms of thought forms of practice 256 00:11:39,340 --> 00:11:36,260 that were not familiar to is not part of 257 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:39,350 our culture no doubt we also projected a 258 00:11:44,139 --> 00:11:41,810 lot of romantic idealism onto these 259 00:11:46,990 --> 00:11:44,149 people about which we knew so little and 260 00:11:50,319 --> 00:11:47,000 yet it exerted an enormous fascination 261 00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:50,329 upon us and I got drawn into that world 262 00:11:55,420 --> 00:11:52,399 not it wasn't just myself obviously 263 00:11:57,790 --> 00:11:55,430 there were a whole generation of us who 264 00:12:02,230 --> 00:11:57,800 were in that part of India or in 265 00:12:05,579 --> 00:12:02,240 Thailand or Japan and it's that it's 266 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:05,589 that sort of community that that 267 00:12:11,620 --> 00:12:08,690 generation of those of us who went out 268 00:12:14,050 --> 00:12:11,630 to the east in the 60s and 70s who now 269 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:14,060 find ourselves basically very much 270 00:12:18,190 --> 00:12:16,010 involved in the teaching and the 271 00:12:20,740 --> 00:12:18,200 interpreting of Buddhist thought and 272 00:12:23,260 --> 00:12:20,750 practice in the modern world and I 273 00:12:25,389 --> 00:12:23,270 figured a very privileged to have taken 274 00:12:28,180 --> 00:12:25,399 those risks to have not followed a 275 00:12:31,900 --> 00:12:28,190 conventional career um and in the end 276 00:12:34,630 --> 00:12:31,910 actually to found myself you know 277 00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:34,640 engaged with modernity engaged with our 278 00:12:39,819 --> 00:12:37,100 secular world particularly I don't think 279 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:39,829 of myself as a terribly religious person 280 00:12:44,980 --> 00:12:41,450 in the conventional sense of that word 281 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:44,990 and I found that to be you know I'm very 282 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:46,730 very grateful I made those choices and 283 00:12:51,310 --> 00:12:49,010 took those risks at that time absolutely 284 00:12:53,079 --> 00:12:51,320 and I think many of us are very grateful 285 00:12:57,250 --> 00:12:53,089 that you did as well tell us how that 286 00:12:59,380 --> 00:12:57,260 then leads into your latest book after 287 00:13:01,569 --> 00:12:59,390 Buddhism rethinking the Dharma for a 288 00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:01,579 secular age and because it's somewhat of 289 00:13:05,439 --> 00:13:03,440 a capstone of that journey isn't it but 290 00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:05,449 but orient it for us if you will yes 291 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:08,089 after Buddhism I think of in many ways 292 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:11,930 as the culmination of much of my life's 293 00:13:18,490 --> 00:13:15,290 work since I was now going back 40 odd 294 00:13:20,980 --> 00:13:18,500 years to when I first started in 295 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:20,990 Dharamsala and I've written a number of 296 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:22,910 books along with others 297 00:13:26,210 --> 00:13:24,210 Buddhism without belief 298 00:13:29,870 --> 00:13:26,220 confessional Buddhist atheist all of 299 00:13:34,010 --> 00:13:29,880 which are are in a sense exploring the 300 00:13:37,180 --> 00:13:34,020 same basic question namely how does the 301 00:13:40,220 --> 00:13:37,190 teaching of Buddhism or the Dharma 302 00:13:46,519 --> 00:13:40,230 speaking to their condition of humanity 303 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:46,529 in a post religious world to me each 304 00:13:53,540 --> 00:13:49,890 book has been an attempt to answer that 305 00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:53,550 question to articulate these ideas in 306 00:14:00,380 --> 00:13:57,600 ways that are divested of maybe the more 307 00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:00,390 supernatural istic or the I will 308 00:14:04,579 --> 00:14:02,640 consider rather superstitious views that 309 00:14:06,860 --> 00:14:04,589 of course also we can find in Buddhism 310 00:14:10,130 --> 00:14:06,870 and trying to get down to the very core 311 00:14:13,130 --> 00:14:10,140 of these teachings which speak primarily 312 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:13,140 to the human condition whoever we are in 313 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:15,810 whatever culture we have grown up and I 314 00:14:21,380 --> 00:14:18,570 do feel that there is an awful lot that 315 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:21,390 remains pertinent and relevant in our 316 00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:23,490 time Buddhism of course is not a 317 00:14:29,540 --> 00:14:26,790 theistic tradition and one could even 318 00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:29,550 argue whether it really is a religion in 319 00:14:35,540 --> 00:14:31,500 the way that we normally understand that 320 00:14:39,340 --> 00:14:35,550 term and so after Buddhism I think of 321 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:39,350 really as the culmination of a whole 322 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:42,930 lifetime really of thought and inquiry 323 00:14:47,870 --> 00:14:45,690 and I'm quite happy with the way in 324 00:14:49,579 --> 00:14:47,880 which I managed in this book to pull 325 00:14:51,949 --> 00:14:49,589 together threats that I've been 326 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:51,959 following for many years and have 327 00:14:59,720 --> 00:14:55,010 arrived hopefully a compelling and 328 00:15:02,210 --> 00:14:59,730 coherent synthesis of my thinking and so 329 00:15:04,460 --> 00:15:02,220 that's kind of where how I see that book 330 00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:04,470 I mean someone called it my magnum opus 331 00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:07,920 which is a rather brand but it might 332 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:09,630 actually be the case I can't ever 333 00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:11,730 imagine writing anything of that scale 334 00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:13,920 or scope again well it's quite an 335 00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:16,350 accomplishment let me shift focus for a 336 00:15:21,319 --> 00:15:18,540 minute because I want to bring it into 337 00:15:24,889 --> 00:15:21,329 the skeptic Oh consciousness science 338 00:15:26,569 --> 00:15:24,899 world if you will I had a chance to been 339 00:15:29,060 --> 00:15:26,579 preparing for this interview watch the 340 00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:29,070 interview you gave with Dan Harris of 341 00:15:33,140 --> 00:15:31,680 ABC News oh yes and Dan Harris is quite 342 00:15:35,690 --> 00:15:33,150 a guy he's been on this show and he 343 00:15:37,730 --> 00:15:35,700 Lloyd him and enjoyed his book 10% 344 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:37,740 happier play in that inner 345 00:15:41,810 --> 00:15:39,450 you and I think this was for confessions 346 00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:41,820 of a Buddhist atheist you said I'm a 347 00:15:47,180 --> 00:15:44,160 naturalist a materialist I believe that 348 00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:47,190 this world is mediated through this body 349 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:50,100 in this brain and that's all there is 350 00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:52,290 would you say that's pretty accurate of 351 00:15:58,730 --> 00:15:56,190 the conclusion you've come to yes with 352 00:16:00,680 --> 00:15:58,740 the qualifier that I also believe that 353 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:00,690 this naturalistic world is profoundly 354 00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:02,610 strange and mysterious and we probably 355 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:04,440 only scratched the surface of what is 356 00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:07,050 actually going on I think we have to 357 00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:09,180 also take into account the limitations 358 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:11,310 of our human brain the limitations of 359 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:13,170 our of our understanding of our 360 00:16:19,190 --> 00:16:16,370 knowledge but I see no reason at all to 361 00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:19,200 introduce an element let's save some 362 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:21,540 free-floating consciousness or spirit or 363 00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:25,410 some divine powers to operate behind the 364 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:28,260 scenes to me that simply doesn't I just 365 00:16:32,030 --> 00:16:30,810 don't think that's necessary and and I 366 00:16:34,940 --> 00:16:32,040 don't think there's really any 367 00:16:37,820 --> 00:16:34,950 compelling evidence to support such a 368 00:16:39,620 --> 00:16:37,830 view and at the same time I feel that 369 00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:39,630 when we go back to the particularly the 370 00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:42,360 earliest teachings of the Buddha I don't 371 00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:44,220 think the Buddha saw his teaching really 372 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:46,320 as offering a kind of definitive 373 00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:49,050 description of how reality works I think 374 00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:50,520 he was he was a pragmatist 375 00:16:56,030 --> 00:16:52,710 and I think he was a skeptic I I think 376 00:16:58,880 --> 00:16:56,040 he had he was interested in how do we 377 00:17:02,000 --> 00:16:58,890 come to terms with birth sickness aging 378 00:17:07,250 --> 00:17:02,010 and death how do we live as human beings 379 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:07,260 and in a way that fulfills our potential 380 00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:09,290 as human beings enables us to flourish 381 00:17:16,850 --> 00:17:14,040 and not just spiritually but in terms of 382 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:16,860 our our philosophical life our ethical 383 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:21,810 life our contemplative life and how do 384 00:17:27,470 --> 00:17:24,210 we engage with the actual issues of our 385 00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:27,480 time and our world and and there's a 386 00:17:32,090 --> 00:17:29,360 again an interesting passage the Buddha 387 00:17:34,370 --> 00:17:32,100 uses it's cited in the book somewhere he 388 00:17:37,010 --> 00:17:34,380 says that you know I don't dispute with 389 00:17:40,190 --> 00:17:37,020 the world it says what the wise in the 390 00:17:42,170 --> 00:17:40,200 why what the wise in the world believe 391 00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:42,180 is existing I accept that that's what's 392 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:44,880 exist what the wise in the world that 393 00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:47,610 agree upon is not existing I accept that 394 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:50,310 as the case in other words team if he 395 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:51,450 were here 396 00:17:55,940 --> 00:17:53,730 today if we follow that little thought 397 00:17:58,519 --> 00:17:55,950 experiment and I didn't think he would 398 00:18:02,690 --> 00:17:58,529 have taken issue with anything the act 399 00:18:04,370 --> 00:18:02,700 is presented by the Natural Sciences he 400 00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:04,380 would have just taken that to be the 401 00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:06,120 conditions of knowledge and 402 00:18:11,139 --> 00:18:08,190 understanding the characterize our age 403 00:18:13,580 --> 00:18:11,149 and his teaching of the Dharma of 404 00:18:15,889 --> 00:18:13,590 meditation of ethics of philosophy and 405 00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:15,899 so on would have accommodated itself to 406 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:18,720 that view it doesn't require that we 407 00:18:24,019 --> 00:18:21,570 adopt another kind of you know oriental 408 00:18:26,539 --> 00:18:24,029 metaphysics of rebirth and different 409 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:26,549 realms of existence and so on and that 410 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:29,010 is entirely second secondary you find it 411 00:18:34,850 --> 00:18:32,490 in traditional Buddhism because that 412 00:18:37,549 --> 00:18:34,860 described the sort of world that people 413 00:18:39,799 --> 00:18:37,559 took for granted at that time and I feel 414 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:39,809 the Buddhism I don't even like the word 415 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:42,210 Buddhism to be quite frank the Dharma 416 00:18:50,450 --> 00:18:45,630 the teachings whatever and are speaking 417 00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:50,460 to the question of of of meaning of 418 00:19:00,110 --> 00:18:57,120 suffering and seek a way to live in in 419 00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:00,120 an authentic and in a in a compassionate 420 00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:02,700 in a wise way in the world they offer us 421 00:19:10,159 --> 00:19:06,510 a range of strategies that can enable a 422 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:10,169 much more flourishing life very good and 423 00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:11,850 I think you've captured their the 424 00:19:18,139 --> 00:19:16,260 essence of what folks will find in not 425 00:19:20,299 --> 00:19:18,149 only this book after Buddhism but in 426 00:19:22,330 --> 00:19:20,309 your prior work but particularly in this 427 00:19:25,820 --> 00:19:22,340 book it's a kind of thorough 428 00:19:28,610 --> 00:19:25,830 re-examination of some of these texts to 429 00:19:31,070 --> 00:19:28,620 more or less strip away the religious 430 00:19:33,710 --> 00:19:31,080 dogma to try and get back and put it in 431 00:19:35,870 --> 00:19:33,720 a modern-day context but I have to tell 432 00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:35,880 you it strikes me as just kind of 433 00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:37,980 interesting and strange if you will 434 00:19:43,210 --> 00:19:40,049 because at the same time that you're 435 00:19:45,950 --> 00:19:43,220 trying to pull Buddhism away from Dogma 436 00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:45,960 there are a number of researchers who 437 00:19:50,450 --> 00:19:48,750 have taken their own personal experience 438 00:19:54,289 --> 00:19:50,460 with Buddhism and in particular 439 00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:54,299 meditation and have gone in the other 440 00:19:58,779 --> 00:19:55,710 direction and that they've gone into the 441 00:20:02,450 --> 00:19:58,789 lab and they've said okay since this is 442 00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:02,460 really essentially a form of science let 443 00:20:07,130 --> 00:20:04,740 me take and see if I can test these 444 00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:07,140 principles scientifically of course 445 00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:09,480 what's emerged from that is a large body 446 00:20:17,299 --> 00:20:14,240 of research on mindfulness and on even 447 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:17,309 neuroplasticity I benefited from this 448 00:20:23,570 --> 00:20:20,970 new look at mindfulness are you aware of 449 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:23,580 that research in what do you make of it 450 00:20:28,970 --> 00:20:26,610 these are the materialism because I 451 00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:28,980 think in a lot of ways it really does 452 00:20:34,669 --> 00:20:31,470 directly challenge many of our ideas 453 00:20:37,789 --> 00:20:34,679 about materialism and consciousness 454 00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:37,799 being this purely a byproduct of the 455 00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:39,600 brain and epiphenomena the brain 456 00:20:44,510 --> 00:20:42,809 generated by biological robots what do 457 00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:44,520 you think of the mindfulness research I 458 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:47,039 think it's extraordinarily interesting 459 00:20:52,130 --> 00:20:50,370 and I I'm not scientist I don't have a 460 00:20:56,090 --> 00:20:52,140 scientific background so I don't always 461 00:20:58,880 --> 00:20:56,100 understand the more technical language 462 00:21:03,380 --> 00:20:58,890 that is employed but what I think has 463 00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:03,390 been shown in these clinical studies is 464 00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:07,350 that it appears that if one applies 465 00:21:12,919 --> 00:21:10,799 oneself to be more mindful and to engage 466 00:21:16,399 --> 00:21:12,929 in these disciplines and practices and 467 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:16,409 it has a measurable results and these 468 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:19,710 results can be measured in terms of the 469 00:21:23,899 --> 00:21:21,690 changes within the neural structure of 470 00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:23,909 the brain and so forth and so on and and 471 00:21:30,620 --> 00:21:26,960 I find that quite extraordinary and if 472 00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:30,630 the fact that the Buddha seems to have 473 00:21:37,940 --> 00:21:33,390 come developed or stumbled across who 474 00:21:41,210 --> 00:21:37,950 knows a methodology that he applied in 475 00:21:43,610 --> 00:21:41,220 the fourth century BC that has been 476 00:21:44,810 --> 00:21:43,620 continued as a living practice within 477 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:44,820 Buddhist traditions for the last 478 00:21:49,549 --> 00:21:46,860 two-and-a-half thousand years and now we 479 00:21:53,779 --> 00:21:49,559 find that when we apply it in modernity 480 00:21:55,460 --> 00:21:53,789 that it had measurable results and 481 00:21:57,620 --> 00:21:55,470 effects I can't think of any other 482 00:22:00,289 --> 00:21:57,630 religious practice that same 483 00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:00,299 Christianity or Judaism or Islam that 484 00:22:06,590 --> 00:22:02,640 would be able to yield comparable 485 00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:06,600 results measurable effects and this 486 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:08,340 really raises the question as to whether 487 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:12,210 Buddhism is best described as a religion 488 00:22:17,180 --> 00:22:14,570 in other words you know belief system 489 00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:17,190 based in faith and so on here we 490 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:18,150 actually have something 491 00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:22,050 testable and the Buddha too I think saw 492 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:23,760 his practice very much in those terms it 493 00:22:27,050 --> 00:22:25,710 was about you know come here check this 494 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:27,060 out see if it works 495 00:22:32,750 --> 00:22:29,210 it's a pragmatism and if it is not 496 00:22:35,150 --> 00:22:32,760 making a concrete observable difference 497 00:22:38,210 --> 00:22:35,160 in the quality of your own life then 498 00:22:40,370 --> 00:22:38,220 drop it it's not actually there's 499 00:22:44,810 --> 00:22:40,380 nothing special or sacred about it that 500 00:22:48,050 --> 00:22:44,820 needs to be upheld just because of some 501 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:48,060 religious faith you have and so yes I 502 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:50,090 think this is an extraordinarily 503 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:52,110 extraordinary period we find ourselves 504 00:22:59,900 --> 00:22:55,730 in for example a couple of weeks ago the 505 00:23:02,620 --> 00:22:59,910 cross-party Parliamentary Committee on 506 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:02,630 mindfulness in the British Parliament 507 00:23:06,860 --> 00:23:05,010 it's such a thing does exist it has a 508 00:23:09,530 --> 00:23:06,870 website and it's been the last year 509 00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:09,540 developing a policy proposal which has 510 00:23:15,170 --> 00:23:12,480 now been given to the government of the 511 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:15,180 United Kingdom to consider the use of 512 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:18,330 mindfulness in education in health care 513 00:23:22,610 --> 00:23:20,610 in the workplace and in the military and 514 00:23:25,790 --> 00:23:22,620 these ideas are now going to be taken 515 00:23:27,740 --> 00:23:25,800 forward for consideration that might 516 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:27,750 lead I mean we don't know how the 517 00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:29,250 government will deal with this that 518 00:23:33,410 --> 00:23:31,440 might lead to mindfulness now being 519 00:23:35,150 --> 00:23:33,420 available on the British natural and 520 00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:35,160 that National Curriculum and so forth 521 00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:38,000 and so on now if somebody had told me in 522 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:42,000 1972 in Dharamsala that in 40 years time 523 00:23:46,430 --> 00:23:44,610 the mindfulness or Buddhist meditation 524 00:23:47,930 --> 00:23:46,440 would be available on in the National 525 00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:47,940 Health Service in England I would have 526 00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:51,180 written them off as a fantasist it would 527 00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:53,580 be was just so inconceivable that that 528 00:23:59,630 --> 00:23:57,120 could have happened and yet it has and I 529 00:24:01,940 --> 00:23:59,640 feel greatly privileged in a way to have 530 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:01,950 been witness to that and to have 531 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:04,890 actually again engaged in these very 532 00:24:09,730 --> 00:24:06,810 practices of mindfulness which frankly 533 00:24:12,710 --> 00:24:09,740 were the practices that I came across 534 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:12,720 while I was a Tibetan Buddhist monk the 535 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:14,130 Tibetans don't actually teach these 536 00:24:19,580 --> 00:24:17,010 things as essentially as they're found 537 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:19,590 in the other forms of Buddhism but when 538 00:24:24,170 --> 00:24:21,330 I first started practicing mindfulness 539 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:24,180 when I was about 21 this was the 540 00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:25,710 practice that really made a difference 541 00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:28,710 not the reciting of mantras and the 542 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:31,200 visualization of mandalas and what we 543 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:32,010 find in Tibetan 544 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:34,170 Buddhism it was the simple act of paying 545 00:24:40,670 --> 00:24:36,690 attention and the disciplines of 546 00:24:44,660 --> 00:24:40,680 attention had an enormous impact on my 547 00:24:46,970 --> 00:24:44,670 own life and I like also to feel that 548 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:46,980 I've been part of the process of trying 549 00:24:51,530 --> 00:24:48,930 to articulate these Buddhist practices 550 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:51,540 in a way that does speak to the sec in 551 00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:54,210 the world through my books and so on and 552 00:24:58,640 --> 00:24:56,370 so i find this enormous li confirming of 553 00:25:01,310 --> 00:24:58,650 those risks I took when I was a young 554 00:25:02,810 --> 00:25:01,320 person I think you should and I don't 555 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:02,820 think there's many people who would 556 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:05,610 argue with you on that point pardon me 557 00:25:11,420 --> 00:25:08,490 on that point I think your orientation 558 00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:11,430 your secular atheist orientation has 559 00:25:17,660 --> 00:25:14,910 been a great fit for the the social 560 00:25:19,910 --> 00:25:17,670 movement that's going on in terms of as 561 00:25:21,950 --> 00:25:19,920 you said a post religious kind of 562 00:25:24,380 --> 00:25:21,960 Western culture I guess what I was 563 00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:24,390 driving at and maybe it's too fine of a 564 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:26,100 point but I don't really think it is 565 00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:28,110 because I think kind of what we're doing 566 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:30,150 is a little bit of shutup and calculate 567 00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:32,610 here in it we're skipping over the 568 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:35,670 deeper philosophical implications of 569 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:37,890 what this mindfulness really means 570 00:25:43,610 --> 00:25:41,310 because it does stand to undermine the 571 00:25:47,710 --> 00:25:43,620 very materialism that you're talking 572 00:25:51,230 --> 00:25:47,720 about materialism doesn't sit well with 573 00:25:55,150 --> 00:25:51,240 immaterial thoughts being able to change 574 00:25:58,220 --> 00:25:55,160 the physical structure of a brain the 575 00:26:00,020 --> 00:25:58,230 our understanding of materialism as it 576 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:00,030 relates to consciousness would suggest 577 00:26:05,150 --> 00:26:02,490 that essentially consciousness is an 578 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:05,160 illusion consciousness can do no work so 579 00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:07,650 Daniel Dennett that new atheist author 580 00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:09,870 and figurehead Daniel Dennett as famous 581 00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:11,840 for saying consciousness is an illusion 582 00:26:16,850 --> 00:26:14,340 Richard Dawkins is famous for saying 583 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:16,860 that we are essentially biological 584 00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:18,690 robots they're kind of saying the same 585 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:21,350 thing and the consciousness research 586 00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:24,090 mindfulness undermines that and it 587 00:26:29,270 --> 00:26:27,030 undermines it in a way that is subtle 588 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:29,280 and people are still coming to grips 589 00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:31,170 with but when you really dig into it it 590 00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:33,750 does undermine it but I can even shift 591 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:35,760 over to another area where it's even 592 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:38,010 more clear because part of the Buddhist 593 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:39,810 dogma that initially kind of think 594 00:26:43,370 --> 00:26:41,850 turned you off was the idea of 595 00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:43,380 reincarnation 596 00:26:47,930 --> 00:26:45,480 yeah and that's another area that back 597 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:47,940 in those days wasn't anything we're 598 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:50,010 close to being studied scientifically 599 00:26:56,090 --> 00:26:53,250 but since then it has been studied 600 00:26:58,760 --> 00:26:56,100 scientifically and some buddhist 601 00:27:00,500 --> 00:26:58,770 oriented researchers have been involved 602 00:27:02,510 --> 00:27:00,510 in part of that but for the most part it 603 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:02,520 was a group at the University of 604 00:27:08,180 --> 00:27:05,250 Virginia initially in Stevenson and now 605 00:27:11,090 --> 00:27:08,190 Jim Tucker and they offer rather 606 00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:11,100 compelling evidence highly suggestive 607 00:27:18,980 --> 00:27:14,460 that something like reincarnation is 608 00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:18,990 really happening so again where are you 609 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:23,220 with it with all that stuff and are you 610 00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:26,570 trying to fit that back into a secular 611 00:27:32,270 --> 00:27:30,000 orientation that may not hold up when we 612 00:27:34,850 --> 00:27:32,280 really look at the science well again 613 00:27:40,130 --> 00:27:34,860 I'm not a scientist and so I can only as 614 00:27:42,620 --> 00:27:40,140 it were you know I if evidence appears 615 00:27:45,850 --> 00:27:42,630 through scientific study and so forth of 616 00:27:48,350 --> 00:27:45,860 the possibility of a non-material 617 00:27:51,140 --> 00:27:48,360 consciousness that floats free of the 618 00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:51,150 material world if evidence can be 619 00:27:56,570 --> 00:27:53,910 compiled that illustrate that indicates 620 00:27:57,860 --> 00:27:56,580 that reincarnation is a possibility then 621 00:28:00,620 --> 00:27:57,870 that's fine I don't have a problem with 622 00:28:03,740 --> 00:28:00,630 that and I just don't think that those 623 00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:03,750 issues are actually central to what the 624 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:06,000 Buddha was trying to do I think these 625 00:28:10,220 --> 00:28:08,610 are fascinating areas and I'm fully 626 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:10,230 supportive of all of this kind of 627 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:12,930 research and follow through with that 628 00:28:18,380 --> 00:28:15,930 thought why do you think because I think 629 00:28:20,270 --> 00:28:18,390 this is an area where you're probably at 630 00:28:23,570 --> 00:28:20,280 odds with a number of people when you 631 00:28:26,990 --> 00:28:23,580 don't think that this was central to 632 00:28:29,210 --> 00:28:27,000 what the Buddha was even if he wasn't 633 00:28:32,140 --> 00:28:29,220 teaching it as you said what was his 634 00:28:34,130 --> 00:28:32,150 realization or was the realization of 635 00:28:35,540 --> 00:28:34,140 thousands and thousands of people who 636 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:35,550 followed I mean that's what I read out 637 00:28:40,730 --> 00:28:38,490 of it is that they when they looked 638 00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:40,740 inside in the same way that you have and 639 00:28:46,790 --> 00:28:43,200 they came to conclusion ah consciousness 640 00:28:49,940 --> 00:28:46,800 is fundamental ah reincarnation is real 641 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:49,950 and can't we maybe assume that the 642 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:51,650 Buddha did come to that same conclusion 643 00:28:55,830 --> 00:28:54,570 well again it depends in which which 644 00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:55,840 text you look at the 645 00:29:00,390 --> 00:28:58,570 accounts of the Buddha's awakening do 646 00:29:02,370 --> 00:29:00,400 not actual there is one account that 647 00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:02,380 talks of him remembering all of his past 648 00:29:07,470 --> 00:29:05,710 life times and so on but the the 649 00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:07,480 accounts that I find the most in 650 00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:09,520 compelling have nothing to do with 651 00:29:13,230 --> 00:29:11,020 reincarnation or the nature of 652 00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:13,240 consciousness in fact there's a text 653 00:29:17,010 --> 00:29:15,400 type in the Pali Canon where the Buddha 654 00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:17,020 says quite clearly the consciousness 655 00:29:22,919 --> 00:29:19,630 emerges out of the interactions between 656 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:22,929 an organism and its environment that you 657 00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:24,970 have a sense organ and that when that 658 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:28,990 meets encounters a color shape of sound 659 00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:32,110 or smell or or an ocean bubbling up 660 00:29:36,659 --> 00:29:34,600 inside you those that encounter is what 661 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:36,669 gives rise to consciousness 662 00:29:42,450 --> 00:29:39,090 consciousness is something that emerges 663 00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:42,460 contingently a palpable an organism 664 00:29:46,649 --> 00:29:44,590 encountering an environment now that 665 00:29:47,940 --> 00:29:46,659 consciousness we need not think of to go 666 00:29:49,919 --> 00:29:47,950 back to your earlier point is of 667 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:49,929 material in the sense that it's made of 668 00:29:54,149 --> 00:29:53,110 atoms or something but it's still part 669 00:29:56,490 --> 00:29:54,159 of the physical world 670 00:29:58,289 --> 00:29:56,500 philosophers I think now I'm not so 671 00:30:00,510 --> 00:29:58,299 comfortable with the word materialism 672 00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:00,520 they prefer something like physicalism 673 00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:03,700 in other words that although these these 674 00:30:07,610 --> 00:30:04,960 things may not be strictly speaking 675 00:30:09,930 --> 00:30:07,620 material they are nonetheless only 676 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:09,940 possible within the context of a 677 00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:12,370 physical environment modality is very 678 00:30:16,380 --> 00:30:13,600 close to actually what the early 679 00:30:17,940 --> 00:30:16,390 Buddhist teachings taught now the whole 680 00:30:19,710 --> 00:30:17,950 business of reincarnation and 681 00:30:21,990 --> 00:30:19,720 consciousness of some kind of in dublin 682 00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:22,000 system dependently of a physical 683 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:24,100 organism this is not an exclusively 684 00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:27,010 Buddhist idea this is a common view that 685 00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:29,200 you'll find in Hinduism in Jainism and 686 00:30:36,830 --> 00:30:31,990 pretty much all the major Indian 687 00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:36,840 traditions of thoughts it it reprobation 688 00:30:43,260 --> 00:30:40,960 ecology and metaphysics of ancient india 689 00:30:45,810 --> 00:30:43,270 than it does about what is specific to 690 00:30:47,399 --> 00:30:45,820 buddhism and when you compare the 691 00:30:49,740 --> 00:30:47,409 Buddhist teaching particularly as we 692 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:49,750 find in the earliest historical texts 693 00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:52,890 and we find that actually he seems to be 694 00:30:59,460 --> 00:30:55,270 articulating something that is not 695 00:31:01,830 --> 00:30:59,470 primarily based upon the notion of 696 00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:01,840 reincarnation or this separate existence 697 00:31:05,399 --> 00:31:02,799 of consciousness which he actually 698 00:31:07,020 --> 00:31:05,409 denies there's a passage in the song 699 00:31:09,090 --> 00:31:07,030 eternity I for example where he's 700 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:09,100 there's the idea that 701 00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:12,130 can exist independently of the physical 702 00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:14,080 environment is impossible it says that 703 00:31:20,129 --> 00:31:16,240 in black and white and okay it's an 704 00:31:22,139 --> 00:31:20,139 exceptional text but that actually makes 705 00:31:24,029 --> 00:31:22,149 it more likely to go back to the Buddha 706 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:24,039 because it's unlikely to have been added 707 00:31:29,879 --> 00:31:27,370 at a later date so that are there's a 708 00:31:31,909 --> 00:31:29,889 great deal of I I think quite strong 709 00:31:34,529 --> 00:31:31,919 evidence that the Buddha was not 710 00:31:37,230 --> 00:31:34,539 primarily concerned with these 711 00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:37,240 particular doctrines and teachings in 712 00:31:41,369 --> 00:31:39,279 later Buddhism particularly Tibetan 713 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:41,379 Buddhism and Tarot either Buddhism then 714 00:31:46,110 --> 00:31:43,570 yes they developed very sophisticated 715 00:31:49,860 --> 00:31:46,120 theories of the nature of consciousness 716 00:31:52,019 --> 00:31:49,870 and how it comes into the body at birth 717 00:31:54,060 --> 00:31:52,029 and so forth and so on and go to dr. 718 00:31:56,220 --> 00:31:54,070 Stevenson's work which I think if we are 719 00:31:58,049 --> 00:31:56,230 to explore the possibility of 720 00:32:00,990 --> 00:31:58,059 reincarnation we need to do so 721 00:32:02,580 --> 00:32:01,000 empirically by the study of cases in the 722 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:02,590 way that he and his followers have done 723 00:32:09,049 --> 00:32:06,370 and now another scientist dr. Charles 724 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:09,059 talked has taken on this work and is 725 00:32:15,149 --> 00:32:12,490 continuing to compile a case studies of 726 00:32:18,210 --> 00:32:15,159 these kids usually from Asia but not 727 00:32:19,769 --> 00:32:18,220 exclusively even children from Christian 728 00:32:22,379 --> 00:32:19,779 cultures Western cultures have also 729 00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:22,389 reported memories quite compelling 730 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:25,120 memories of remembering past lives but 731 00:32:30,590 --> 00:32:27,730 there are enormous philosophical 732 00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:30,600 problems with this work you cannot draw 733 00:32:35,580 --> 00:32:33,460 I think a lot of people particularly 734 00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:35,590 Buddhists who want proof of 735 00:32:40,769 --> 00:32:38,049 reincarnation will take these studies 736 00:32:43,139 --> 00:32:40,779 and basically say are you see this child 737 00:32:44,450 --> 00:32:43,149 remembered X Y Z therefore there is 738 00:32:48,659 --> 00:32:44,460 reincarnation 739 00:32:50,999 --> 00:32:48,669 now that is drawing what is to me a 740 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:51,009 highly isn't it that's inductive 741 00:32:56,249 --> 00:32:52,570 reasoning your take your drawing a very 742 00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:56,259 general conclusion from very limited 743 00:33:01,560 --> 00:32:59,200 pieces of evidence you could just as 744 00:33:02,970 --> 00:33:01,570 well conclude as some early book Indian 745 00:33:05,669 --> 00:33:02,980 falafel esophagus 746 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:05,679 schools concluded that we have two or 747 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:10,570 three lifetimes that we may just because 748 00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:13,570 a child has access to information about 749 00:33:18,899 --> 00:33:16,960 a previous existence and can turn and 750 00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:18,909 offer some quite you know compelling 751 00:33:23,570 --> 00:33:21,600 evidence for that that in itself is no 752 00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:23,580 proof that that child will be reborn 753 00:33:27,529 --> 00:33:25,289 again it could be like it's a butterfly 754 00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:27,539 in a crystal it's a to life thing you 755 00:33:31,580 --> 00:33:29,760 have to be very careful to draw these 756 00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:31,590 these generalize conclusions 757 00:33:35,659 --> 00:33:33,480 particularly if they happen to support 758 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:35,669 your religious beliefs I agree and I 759 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:38,130 think that's an important important part 760 00:33:43,130 --> 00:33:40,770 of your work is no matter if someone 761 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:43,140 agrees with everything that you're 762 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:46,370 tearing down or not I love the 763 00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:49,410 iconoclastic approach that you take is 764 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:51,840 if let's strip it all down and see where 765 00:33:56,690 --> 00:33:54,570 the data leads I don't follow your 766 00:33:58,940 --> 00:33:56,700 reasoning on reincarnation because I 767 00:34:01,220 --> 00:33:58,950 think in the same way that we have to 768 00:34:04,490 --> 00:34:01,230 strip away the religious dogma we also 769 00:34:06,909 --> 00:34:04,500 have to strip away the the science dogma 770 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:06,919 in the shadow of materialism thymine 771 00:34:11,359 --> 00:34:09,810 materialism is so ingrained in our 772 00:34:13,849 --> 00:34:11,369 education system in our scientific 773 00:34:15,470 --> 00:34:13,859 system that as soon as someone begins to 774 00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:15,480 think outside of the box and even 775 00:34:19,609 --> 00:34:18,240 contemplate reincarnation I think the 776 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:19,619 kind of challenges that you're making 777 00:34:23,810 --> 00:34:22,050 are immediately thrown on the table 778 00:34:24,260 --> 00:34:23,820 without the thought of well wait a 779 00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:24,270 minute 780 00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:26,580 in those challenges I am still 781 00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:29,250 undermining everything that I thought I 782 00:34:36,379 --> 00:34:32,639 knew about science about the physical 783 00:34:38,270 --> 00:34:36,389 world but again you've laid bare the 784 00:34:39,649 --> 00:34:38,280 field there and I think people can do 785 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:39,659 with it what they will 786 00:34:43,930 --> 00:34:41,970 and I think you show an openness to 787 00:34:46,070 --> 00:34:43,940 looking at the science that is 788 00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:46,080 refreshing and I think that's all we can 789 00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:48,600 do is keep digging through that and 790 00:34:53,450 --> 00:34:51,510 digging through that so I think you're 791 00:34:56,510 --> 00:34:53,460 to be committed for doing that I do 792 00:34:57,950 --> 00:34:56,520 think that the the science does take us 793 00:34:59,840 --> 00:34:57,960 in a new in a different direction as 794 00:35:01,940 --> 00:34:59,850 does the near-death experience science 795 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:01,950 but there's no need to I guess I will 796 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:02,970 throw that on the table 797 00:35:07,099 --> 00:35:04,650 I think the near-death experience 798 00:35:10,130 --> 00:35:07,109 science is another whole area that again 799 00:35:13,970 --> 00:35:10,140 pulls us in that same direction away 800 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:13,980 from materialism and I think it's highly 801 00:35:19,490 --> 00:35:16,490 suggestive on a higher maybe 802 00:35:22,849 --> 00:35:19,500 philosophical sense of the idea of karma 803 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:22,859 I mean that is another area I guess 804 00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:25,650 where your views kind of butt up against 805 00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:28,800 some Buddhist orthodoxy so if you have 806 00:35:35,210 --> 00:35:32,790 any thoughts on karma and this idea of a 807 00:35:37,339 --> 00:35:35,220 hierarchical consciousness 808 00:35:40,870 --> 00:35:37,349 something more like a god that people 809 00:35:43,010 --> 00:35:40,880 experience in these after after death 810 00:35:45,260 --> 00:35:43,020 situations I'd love to hear it 811 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:45,270 okay well I think I really have to come 812 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:47,010 back to the what to me is the primary 813 00:35:51,770 --> 00:35:49,050 issue the buddha describes his teaching 814 00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:51,780 as that of coming to terms with dukkha 815 00:35:56,599 --> 00:35:54,000 with the suffering of life and seeking 816 00:35:59,059 --> 00:35:56,609 to find an authentic response to that 817 00:36:01,579 --> 00:35:59,069 suffering the he presents his teaching 818 00:36:03,650 --> 00:36:01,589 much as we find the Hellenistic 819 00:36:07,010 --> 00:36:03,660 philosophers presented their teaching as 820 00:36:09,260 --> 00:36:07,020 primarily a kind of therapy it has to do 821 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:09,270 with human flourishing as the Greeks 822 00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:11,250 would call it it has to do with learning 823 00:36:18,020 --> 00:36:14,430 to live a life to the full to the utmost 824 00:36:20,210 --> 00:36:18,030 of our potential and frankly I think 825 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:20,220 whether we believe in reincarnation or 826 00:36:23,780 --> 00:36:22,650 we don't believe in reincarnation if we 827 00:36:26,180 --> 00:36:23,790 believe in higher states of 828 00:36:28,339 --> 00:36:26,190 consciousness or not I think that's a 829 00:36:30,530 --> 00:36:28,349 secondary issue I don't think it makes 830 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:30,540 much of a difference to how we actually 831 00:36:35,780 --> 00:36:32,400 live from moment to moment in this world 832 00:36:38,450 --> 00:36:35,790 in a in a sensitive and a wise and in a 833 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:38,460 compassionate way in that sense the 834 00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:40,290 Buddhist description of himself as a 835 00:36:46,460 --> 00:36:43,440 doctor rather than as a Mehta physician 836 00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:46,470 is vitally important and what I feel is 837 00:36:52,220 --> 00:36:49,500 again born out with the practice of 838 00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:52,230 mindfulness is that its effectiveness is 839 00:36:57,770 --> 00:36:56,310 not because it reveals some you know 840 00:36:59,720 --> 00:36:57,780 some higher truths about the nature of 841 00:37:03,559 --> 00:36:59,730 reality is that it actually enables 842 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:03,569 people to live a fuller richer less 843 00:37:09,589 --> 00:37:07,410 neurotic less frustrated lives that's to 844 00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:09,599 me the key Buddhism for me is 845 00:37:15,530 --> 00:37:12,720 essentially an ethics it's about how we 846 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:15,540 can practice how we can live in this 847 00:37:21,380 --> 00:37:17,730 world in relation with other people in 848 00:37:23,750 --> 00:37:21,390 relation with the the environment with 849 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:23,760 the the other forms of life that we 850 00:37:28,940 --> 00:37:26,010 share this planet with that to me is 851 00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:28,950 what matters most the metaphysical 852 00:37:33,770 --> 00:37:31,260 issues the philosophical issues that 853 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:33,780 we've been discussing are of course a 854 00:37:38,599 --> 00:37:36,450 great interest and I do feel that people 855 00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:38,609 working in these fields may bring us to 856 00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:40,710 understandings about our understanding 857 00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:42,480 of reality that conflict both with 858 00:37:46,510 --> 00:37:44,910 Buddhism and with materialistic science 859 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:46,520 I've got no problem with that whatsoever 860 00:37:51,970 --> 00:37:48,930 but it's not my 861 00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:51,980 area of special specialization or 862 00:37:58,610 --> 00:37:55,590 expertise I see I see I see myself 863 00:38:02,810 --> 00:37:58,620 really as an ethicist and it's about the 864 00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:02,820 quality of life of human life in our 865 00:38:07,010 --> 00:38:05,040 world as it exists today that matters 866 00:38:10,340 --> 00:38:07,020 most that's a great point and maybe a 867 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:10,350 lead-in for who specifically you see 868 00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:13,530 getting the most benefit from this book 869 00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:16,560 after Buddhism I see the people who may 870 00:38:20,510 --> 00:38:18,390 most benefit from this book will be 871 00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:20,520 people who are drawn to Buddhist 872 00:38:24,410 --> 00:38:22,560 practices let's say by mindfulness 873 00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:24,420 meditation is the obvious example and 874 00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:29,400 yet they find that just the the simple 875 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:31,140 practice of paying attention as you 876 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:33,050 might be taught on an eight-week MBSR 877 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:36,810 course for example and does perhaps 878 00:38:42,980 --> 00:38:40,770 resolve certain pathological problems 879 00:38:45,860 --> 00:38:42,990 they have or stress-related issues that 880 00:38:49,610 --> 00:38:45,870 they have but what I find in my work is 881 00:38:52,190 --> 00:38:49,620 the serta considerable percentage of 882 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:52,200 people who practice mindfulness totally 883 00:38:58,580 --> 00:38:55,170 outside the Buddhist world find that 884 00:39:02,960 --> 00:38:58,590 although it resolves certain problems 885 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:02,970 that they are trying to - - - it resolve 886 00:39:08,210 --> 00:39:05,810 certain problems in their lives it also 887 00:39:11,660 --> 00:39:08,220 provides them with another perspective 888 00:39:13,580 --> 00:39:11,670 on their life as a whole and it affords 889 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:13,590 them the opportunity often for the very 890 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:16,170 first time to have had the freedom just 891 00:39:22,460 --> 00:39:20,370 to stop and to look and to attend and to 892 00:39:24,980 --> 00:39:22,470 recognize that their thoughts are just 893 00:39:27,230 --> 00:39:24,990 thoughts they don't necessarily need to 894 00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:27,240 be identified with as my thoughts or my 895 00:39:33,530 --> 00:39:30,480 feelings that you open up a kind of 896 00:39:36,650 --> 00:39:33,540 nonreactive space of awareness and that 897 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:36,660 affords you a kind of freedom to begin 898 00:39:42,020 --> 00:39:39,090 asking ethical questions namely well 899 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:42,030 what is the purpose of living at all 900 00:39:47,570 --> 00:39:43,850 what is the purpose of human existence 901 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:47,580 how can I lead a good life and you begin 902 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:49,530 to see that a lot of the stuff in your 903 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:51,570 life that had been causing you distress 904 00:39:59,990 --> 00:39:55,490 or stress was largely these kind of 905 00:40:01,670 --> 00:40:00,000 impulsive reactive patterns of mind that 906 00:40:02,330 --> 00:40:01,680 have come from our society or probably 907 00:40:05,690 --> 00:40:02,340 after one 908 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:05,700 neurobiology that it never had not 909 00:40:10,490 --> 00:40:08,490 allowed you the freedom to really take 910 00:40:14,210 --> 00:40:10,500 responsibility for your own existence 911 00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:14,220 and so these people then google 912 00:40:18,170 --> 00:40:15,990 mindfulness and they find out that it's 913 00:40:20,690 --> 00:40:18,180 a Buddhist meditation practice they then 914 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:20,700 seek out either Buddhist philosophy 915 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:24,210 books or for most of them they then want 916 00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:26,130 to deepen that practice by coming on a 917 00:40:30,740 --> 00:40:27,990 Buddhist meditation course or something 918 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:30,750 like that and then they realize that 919 00:40:37,550 --> 00:40:33,450 what they need for mindfulness to be a 920 00:40:39,890 --> 00:40:37,560 fully humanized activity is that it 921 00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:39,900 needs to be rooted in a clearer sense of 922 00:40:45,820 --> 00:40:42,240 ethics a clearer sense of a philosophy 923 00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:45,830 of life and that I feel is what my book 924 00:40:50,990 --> 00:40:48,720 it's these sorts of people that I'm 925 00:40:54,130 --> 00:40:51,000 addressing in this book people who are 926 00:40:56,210 --> 00:40:54,140 looking to is a sense take a 927 00:40:59,210 --> 00:40:56,220 one-dimensional practice of mindfulness 928 00:41:02,510 --> 00:40:59,220 and translate it into a three 929 00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:02,520 dimensional way of life mindful is being 930 00:41:07,820 --> 00:41:05,790 just an element a central element I I do 931 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:07,830 feel very strongly it's a very central 932 00:41:13,310 --> 00:41:09,690 element of the Buddhist practice but 933 00:41:16,910 --> 00:41:13,320 it's not really meaningful in a deeper 934 00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:16,920 sense unless it is incorporated into an 935 00:41:21,470 --> 00:41:19,110 ethical vision and I would say a 936 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:21,480 philosophical vision of what a human 937 00:41:27,380 --> 00:41:24,690 life could be and this involves very 938 00:41:30,110 --> 00:41:27,390 much a much more deeper coming to terms 939 00:41:33,020 --> 00:41:30,120 with our our birth our death and also 940 00:41:35,570 --> 00:41:33,030 the suffering that we and others and the 941 00:41:38,330 --> 00:41:35,580 planet experience here and that and in 942 00:41:41,420 --> 00:41:38,340 that sense it leads to I think a kind of 943 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:41,430 pragmatic and ethical a philosophy of 944 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:43,290 life and what I tried to do in after 945 00:41:47,930 --> 00:41:45,330 Buddhism is to at least sketch an 946 00:41:50,420 --> 00:41:47,940 outline of what such an ethics might be 947 00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:50,430 what such a philosophy might be and 948 00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:53,280 having divested it as you've already 949 00:41:58,250 --> 00:41:55,680 pointed out of of the more overtly 950 00:42:01,130 --> 00:41:58,260 religious elements of Buddhism I'm not 951 00:42:03,890 --> 00:42:01,140 rejecting reincarnation I actually have 952 00:42:06,020 --> 00:42:03,900 no idea what happens after death and I 953 00:42:09,590 --> 00:42:06,030 wish to approach my own death with a 954 00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:09,600 totally open mind whatever may occur but 955 00:42:15,569 --> 00:42:13,110 the the point at the heart of this 956 00:42:18,209 --> 00:42:15,579 practice is one that has to 957 00:42:21,299 --> 00:42:18,219 with living here and now living in this 958 00:42:24,989 --> 00:42:21,309 time in this world in our history in our 959 00:42:27,539 --> 00:42:24,999 culture in a scientific world but 960 00:42:30,059 --> 00:42:27,549 open-mindedly but also with a degree 961 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:30,069 passion and commitment to what it is 962 00:42:34,170 --> 00:42:32,410 that matters most versus in this life in 963 00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:34,180 this world you know the other thing I 964 00:42:38,670 --> 00:42:36,430 think your book does and your work in 965 00:42:40,529 --> 00:42:38,680 general does you kind of touched on it 966 00:42:42,809 --> 00:42:40,539 but I think that anyone who goes through 967 00:42:45,769 --> 00:42:42,819 this experience that you just talked 968 00:42:48,299 --> 00:42:45,779 about of encountering meditation and 969 00:42:51,209 --> 00:42:48,309 seeing the changes that it might bring 970 00:42:53,699 --> 00:42:51,219 to them does just as you said I mean the 971 00:42:55,199 --> 00:42:53,709 next step is to Google well what is this 972 00:42:56,579 --> 00:42:55,209 you know what it because we're curious 973 00:42:58,920 --> 00:42:56,589 especially in the West and were 974 00:43:01,349 --> 00:42:58,930 knowledge driven and we go to that next 975 00:43:04,859 --> 00:43:01,359 step and we encounter this rather 976 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:04,869 jolting culture clash don't we and I 977 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:08,410 think you do a great service of helping 978 00:43:12,959 --> 00:43:10,690 people navigate that culture clash and 979 00:43:16,319 --> 00:43:12,969 again even if one doesn't agree with 980 00:43:20,039 --> 00:43:16,329 everything that you say it is refreshing 981 00:43:21,660 --> 00:43:20,049 to say hey here's someone who has had 982 00:43:25,739 --> 00:43:21,670 the same kind of questions had the same 983 00:43:27,809 --> 00:43:25,749 kind of cultural a kind of anxiety over 984 00:43:30,180 --> 00:43:27,819 the differences and has found a path 985 00:43:32,130 --> 00:43:30,190 through it can you speak to that at all 986 00:43:35,219 --> 00:43:32,140 yeah I think that's true I mean I get a 987 00:43:37,499 --> 00:43:35,229 lot of feedback from readers of books 988 00:43:40,349 --> 00:43:37,509 and people who listen to my audio talks 989 00:43:42,959 --> 00:43:40,359 and so on and a very common thing they 990 00:43:46,410 --> 00:43:42,969 say is ah someone is putting into words 991 00:43:49,380 --> 00:43:46,420 what I'd be feeling all a lot and a lot 992 00:43:50,819 --> 00:43:49,390 of people do Buddhist practice sometimes 993 00:43:52,620 --> 00:43:50,829 they're part of Buddhist communities but 994 00:43:55,019 --> 00:43:52,630 at a certain point they just simply 995 00:43:57,900 --> 00:43:55,029 can't accept the dogmas or they can't 996 00:43:59,849 --> 00:43:57,910 accept the authoritarian hierarchies of 997 00:44:01,499 --> 00:43:59,859 these institutions starts to feel like 998 00:44:04,049 --> 00:44:01,509 church again it starts to feel like 999 00:44:05,969 --> 00:44:04,059 church again but that doesn't mean that 1000 00:44:08,029 --> 00:44:05,979 they feel that what they've been 1001 00:44:10,499 --> 00:44:08,039 practicing in their meditation or in 1002 00:44:13,529 --> 00:44:10,509 their thinking and their ethical lives 1003 00:44:15,449 --> 00:44:13,539 and that's not something they are 1004 00:44:17,099 --> 00:44:15,459 willing to reject they're not willing to 1005 00:44:20,609 --> 00:44:17,109 throw that baby out with the bathwater 1006 00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:20,619 as one says and so they're looking for a 1007 00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:24,910 language that is that is honest and that 1008 00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:27,730 is in you know is rude 1009 00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:30,880 in the Buddhist tradition because they 1010 00:44:36,540 --> 00:44:32,680 do feel an affinity with this philosophy 1011 00:44:39,660 --> 00:44:36,550 with this ethos and yet they find a lot 1012 00:44:41,730 --> 00:44:39,670 of the the apparatus of Buddhism gets in 1013 00:44:44,310 --> 00:44:41,740 the way it requires of them to believe 1014 00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:44,320 things that they just mean own good 1015 00:44:49,530 --> 00:44:47,440 faith cannot really take on board so my 1016 00:44:53,130 --> 00:44:49,540 books have served I think as a kind of a 1017 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:53,140 life raft for people who who wish to 1018 00:44:58,349 --> 00:44:55,690 pursue this practice wish to pursue this 1019 00:45:01,410 --> 00:44:58,359 philosophy but in a way that is in 1020 00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:01,420 accord with their secular existence in 1021 00:45:05,310 --> 00:45:03,730 accord with how they understand the 1022 00:45:08,010 --> 00:45:05,320 world from what they've learned from the 1023 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:08,020 Natural Sciences and so on and they're 1024 00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:12,250 my audience really and and I get a lot 1025 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:15,310 of affirmation from these emails I get 1026 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:17,770 fairly regular regular regularly from 1027 00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:20,170 people who's who found that my work 1028 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:22,960 enables them to continue and to deeper 1029 00:45:29,220 --> 00:45:26,650 their meditation practice but within a 1030 00:45:31,890 --> 00:45:29,230 framework that doesn't require religious 1031 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:31,900 and dogmatic belief so Stephen how can 1032 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:34,090 folks connect with you obviously this 1033 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:36,010 book after Buddhism rethinking the 1034 00:45:40,170 --> 00:45:38,410 Dharma for a secular age is new it's out 1035 00:45:42,510 --> 00:45:40,180 people will want to check that out 1036 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:42,520 you also do trainings on a regular basis 1037 00:45:46,050 --> 00:45:44,290 and I know you're kind of moving around 1038 00:45:48,450 --> 00:45:46,060 a lot how do people get in touch with 1039 00:45:50,370 --> 00:45:48,460 you well the best way to get in touch 1040 00:46:08,120 --> 00:45:50,380 with me is through my website which is 1041 00:46:12,109 --> 00:46:08,130 www.hyken.com times go further afield 1042 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:12,119 together with my wife I offer several 1043 00:46:19,380 --> 00:46:15,970 week-long meditation retreats often with 1044 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:19,390 quite pronounced study or philosophical 1045 00:46:26,510 --> 00:46:22,810 component built in of course people can 1046 00:46:29,460 --> 00:46:26,520 also look at my other writings and 1047 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:29,470 there's a huge number of audio talks 1048 00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:31,330 that I've given over the years there can 1049 00:46:36,690 --> 00:46:33,910 be evaded their can be downloaded and 1050 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:36,700 listen to his podcast and those can be 1051 00:46:44,170 --> 00:46:41,090 acquired from www 1052 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:44,180 edan one word org which is an audio 1053 00:46:49,630 --> 00:46:47,330 resource based in Massachusetts that's 1054 00:46:51,940 --> 00:46:49,640 the best way to get in touch I'm very 1055 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:51,950 happy to respond to questions and 1056 00:46:58,780 --> 00:46:54,530 queries through emails you can contact 1057 00:47:00,340 --> 00:46:58,790 me also through the website and yeah 1058 00:47:02,530 --> 00:47:00,350 that's about it really I don't have an 1059 00:47:06,670 --> 00:47:02,540 institution or an organization of any 1060 00:47:11,260 --> 00:47:06,680 kind but I work in different areas in 1061 00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:11,270 mainly retreat centers mainly been in 1062 00:47:16,210 --> 00:47:13,730 the so called Vipassana world that's my 1063 00:47:18,460 --> 00:47:16,220 name teaching environment well great 1064 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:18,470 it's been great having you on and I wish 1065 00:47:22,450 --> 00:47:20,570 you the best of luck with after Buddhism 1066 00:47:24,730 --> 00:47:22,460 and just thanks again for joining me 1067 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:24,740 thank you very much Alex it's been a 1068 00:47:31,750 --> 00:47:30,050 pleasure thanks again to Steven bachelor 1069 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:31,760 for joining me today on skeptic Oh 1070 00:47:35,950 --> 00:47:33,890 the one question I tee up from this 1071 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:35,960 interview is the one that I've been 1072 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:38,330 pounding on over and over again our 1073 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:41,530 secular Buddhists slash atheists 1074 00:47:47,380 --> 00:47:44,450 sidestepping philosophical and 1075 00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:47,390 scientific implications that the 1076 00:47:51,490 --> 00:47:49,520 meditation revolution have brought I 1077 00:47:54,370 --> 00:47:51,500 mean it's clear that shut up and 1078 00:47:56,410 --> 00:47:54,380 meditate might make you feel better but 1079 00:47:59,860 --> 00:47:56,420 does it really get it the question of 1080 00:48:01,690 --> 00:47:59,870 Who am I why am I here okay I snuck that 1081 00:48:03,220 --> 00:48:01,700 second question in on you there it's 1082 00:48:04,870 --> 00:48:03,230 kind of a leading question but if you've 1083 00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:04,880 listened to a lot of skeptical you know 1084 00:48:08,170 --> 00:48:06,710 the direction I'm heading on all this so 1085 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:08,180 you gotta expect a little bit of that 1086 00:48:11,650 --> 00:48:09,650 I'd love to hear from you about your 1087 00:48:13,420 --> 00:48:11,660 answers to those questions or your 1088 00:48:16,690 --> 00:48:13,430 feelings in general about this interview 1089 00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:16,700 the place to do it is at skeptic Oh calm 1090 00:48:23,770 --> 00:48:21,200 that's s ke PTI ke o calm there you can 1091 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:23,780 find our almost 300 previous shows all 1092 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:26,570 available for free download you can also 1093 00:48:30,970 --> 00:48:28,610 subscribe to us there through iTunes or 1094 00:48:33,220 --> 00:48:30,980 stitcher and you can join us on the 1095 00:48:34,900 --> 00:48:33,230 forum or leave a comment they are on the 1096 00:48:37,420 --> 00:48:34,910 website I do have a number of 1097 00:48:39,610 --> 00:48:37,430 interesting shows coming up I can't wait 1098 00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:39,620 to bring it all to you to do stick 1099 00:48:43,060 --> 00:48:41,390 around and do share the show with your 1100 00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:43,070 friends and others who you think benefit